steve_southwell: Ahem...

steve_southwell: Ok, then this meeting is called to order.

steve_southwell: Are the minutes from last week posted?

ffwguy: No, they

ffwguy: didn't get up on the site

steve_southwell: Well, if I remember correctly, we didn't have quorum last time.

steve_southwell: And the time before was the 6th?

ffwguy: Correct, the minutes from Per's meeting need to be approved though

pdigre: last week's ??

steve_southwell: Was that a meeting?

ffwguy: Last week was not a meeting

pdigre: I didn't think so ?

steve_southwell: Sept 6th was the last official meeting.

steve_southwell: And it was Me, Geoff, David, and Peter.

steve_southwell: http://freeframework.twu.net/board/20000906_minutes.shtml

prvdam: I did not attend on Sep 6. I am listed incorrectly.

prvdam: It was my daughters birthday party.

pdigre: Dead silence...

ffwguy: Not weird, I did the page, I didn't get the list right. The transcript has it correct.

ffwguy: The minutes from the 6th don't exist, I don't remember getting anything from David

ffwguy: I'll do it, but it'll be over the weekend

ffwguy: Aye

prvdam: aye

pdigre: Aye

ffwguy: Next

ffwguy: Steve Lichtenberg and David K. James

ffwguy: I think we were also asking for another board member to be involved since code directions are so important

prvdam: I move for Anand to be in charge. We should give him a chance.

ffwguy: After election, let it be up to the committee to how they run things, if they want Anand in charge, go for it

prvdam: I am available.

ffwguy: Steve - I thought David as a PSC developer might be a good idea, also Brian. Concerns I think both of them would have is do they have the time. Since Peter is volunteering, perhaps he would be a good choice

prvdam: Tough question

ffwguy: Eliminate a nominee, I believe we can still use the nominees as volunteers for work the committee hands out

prvdam: I don't think Steve should step back - he has substantial time for this

ffwguy: Steve - the committee is about more than code review. This is code direction as well. I'd like to see you on it.

prvdam: Right Geoff

pdigre: good !

ffwguy: Steve - no I don't know him well but I do see posts on the WS PEG list.

ffwguy: I think he might be OK to review code, but I think he's probably odd man out

prvdam: Isn't he the guy who was pushing so hard for the alternative way to use ActiveX functionality?

ffwguy: Steve L. I know real well, as I do Paul Galvin

ffwguy: I agree, we let David know we have work for him, just not a committee member

prvdam: Agreed.

pdigre: agree

pdigre: Aye

ffwguy: aye

prvdam: Aye

pdigre: move on..

ffwguy: None other than post the 3 things we said the committee would handle at the first meeting.

prvdam: We have to announce this big on the FFW site. It is one of the first real steps.

prvdam: I mean list.

ffwguy: Agreed

ffwguy: During the meeting we approved the committee we said it would handle three things - specifics are in the transcript, yes the CSC itself

prvdam: (Please do not use italic. It hurts!)

prvdam: Incorporation

ffwguy: Alright, but I'm not giving up the pumpkin color.

steve_southwell: Yes, did Dave give any status on that?

ffwguy: I asked David for it but I didn't get a reply.

ffwguy: After the meeting, lets have someone call him.

prvdam: An American.

steve_southwell: He's at the W3c meeting.

steve_southwell: Better to email him.

ffwguy: I already did that, he'll get back to us then when he can

steve_southwell: OK. Other old business?

steve_southwell: Going once...

steve_southwell: Going Twice...

ffwguy: I think the website review is old business, no?

steve_southwell: OK. Good point.

steve_southwell: Yes, we should discuss the website.

prvdam: Someone volunteered for that, right?

steve_southwell: Yes, and I dropped the ball on getting him set up...

prvdam: So?

steve_southwell: I zipped up the whole site, but he didn't want me to send him a 2 mb file.

ffwguy: Peter - yes we have someone who do some reviewing, but we also need to do some content ourselves

steve_southwell: And I haven't gotten around to getting the file down in size.

steve_southwell: I'll follow up with him today and get him a copy.

prvdam: The 2 mb must be the downloads mainly. He does not need that.

ffwguy: Even for only us, I think we all need to grab the mission statement, etc. Brian had a good idea that

ffwguy: all of that, with the article now should be combined into one.

ffwguy: Also need to go over that license.

prvdam: I think combining that stuff can still be delegated.

steve_southwell: Are there any specific concerns about the license from anyone present?

ffwguy: Combining - I agree, let's let our volunteer do it

prvdam: We should delegate whatever we can or we don't get much done.

ffwguy: License - not by what's there, but perhaps by what's not. We should try as much as possible to release ourselves from liability. I think we should also add a statement that the board makes all the final decisions.

steve_southwell: Agreed about delegating. All in favor of me getting our volunteer to do it?

prvdam: Aye. Invite the volunteer to do our wishlist and see what he says.

pdigre: Aye , get a volunteer Steve.

ffwguy: Steve - agreed on the volunteer, also I can do a small mod to the license for approval by the BC first, the BC can reiterate it, and then send it to full committee for vote

steve_southwell: OK. - We'll get a volunteer to combine the stuff.

steve_southwell: I'm not opposed to Geoff making mods to the license. - for review by the board.

steve_southwell: Since we seem to have lots of money these days, how about us getting an attorney to review it?

prvdam: I think we can put our money to better use at this time.

ffwguy: We can always have it reviewed later.

steve_southwell: Nobody wants lawyers involved, huh?

ffwguy: It is expensive

steve_southwell: Personally, I wish that we would retain one and have him do our incorporation and handle the license...

pdigre: Lawyers, only if and when necessary!

steve_southwell: I realize it's expensive, but the committments to our coffers have grown...

ffwguy: On the other hand, now that you mention it Steve, there are resources from the National Board of Non-Profits that cut their rates

prvdam: Maybe we can find a volunteer loyer thru the peg/webspeed/ffw list?

steve_southwell: Good point. Perhaps this is an issue for the business committee to look into?

steve_southwell: And in the mean time, Geoff can propose mods?

prvdam: Aye.

steve_southwell: Aye

pdigre: aye

ffwguy: I can do a couple of things then - I'll check the rates we can get through the non-profit board, I'll ask my own lawyer who specializes in intellectual property, and I have a Progress user at a law firm that also does intellectual property.

ffwguy: Aye by me.

steve_southwell: Very well - remanded to the business committee for further review.

steve_southwell: Anyone else have recommendations for the license?

steve_southwell: I was thinking that perhaps ASP's should not be required to disclose FFW in their licensing agreements...

steve_southwell: (As a clarification to the license)

ffwguy: I'd like to see that they are required. Do you have indication this would put an ASP off?

steve_southwell: My only thought was that if a particular ASP didn't want to disclose their technology for security purposes, then they might be put off.

steve_southwell: My ASP would definitely recognize FFW.

prvdam: It can be a drawback or an advantage, leave it to the ASP.

steve_southwell: Also, for a B to C app, it might confuse a novice user to see FFW in the license.

ffwguy: We do give up publicity this way

steve_southwell: I would think we would need permission of the ASP to use them for publicity anyway, right?

prvdam: We will get publicity if the ASP thinks it is an advantage.

steve_southwell: We don't need publicity from an un-related ASP.

ffwguy: No, the other way around. Steve. I want them to give us publicity by having to tell other people they use our code.

steve_southwell: For instance if it were a B to C app not related to the Progress / WS world.

ffwguy: Steve - how are they going to use FFW if they don't use WS? How could they not be in the WS world?

steve_southwell: If you write an ASP for lets-say the skateboarding community...

steve_southwell: The company may use WS, but its customers don't give a rat's a**

prvdam: 15 minutes left.

ffwguy: Steve - I'

steve_southwell: OK. We can table this discussion if we need to.

ffwguy: d still like to see a "powerd by or something"....

ffwguy: OK, until next time.

steve_southwell: Any new business?

prvdam: Documentation!

ffwguy: Actually other old business - also Source Forge

ffwguy: Peter - we should ask our volunteer for that

steve_southwell: Tim Greenhoot says he's good at documentation type stuff.

ffwguy: Let's task the Code Committee with giving Tim a direction to start docs

steve_southwell: You know, I still haven't spent any time at source forge.

steve_southwell: Should we instead have a documentation / website committee?

prvdam: Agreed about the CSC being in charge of doc as well. That's a new one.

prvdam: I think doc belongs to the CSC.

steve_southwell: Per?

ffwguy: Steve - docs should definitely go with the code. If the code commitee wants a sub-committe then let them do that

pdigre: Could the CSC be in charge of Source Forge too ?

prvdam: Per: yep

steve_southwell: Agreed.

steve_southwell: All in favor of remanding documentation and SourceForge to CSC?

ffwguy: Per - yes, but also I think that's a big issue that the main board should also approve

prvdam: We have to reformulate the CSC tasks.

ffwguy: A note on Source Forge - PSC has not chosen where their POSSE is going to be yet. That may influence the decision

steve_southwell: hmmm.

pdigre: Unfortunately I haven't had a look at Source Forge yet.

steve_southwell: I bet PSC builds their own...

ffwguy: Peter - yes, we should add documentation

prvdam: I have not looked at Source Forge either.

steve_southwell: I hope they'll use FFW if they do.

prvdam: Let's assign this to the CSC anyway.

ffwguy: Steve - I suspect not, I have spoken with Kim Lomastro before she official was in her new job.......

ffwguy: I hear they are speaking with Open Source community people and are being told they need to host at credible sites, source forge among them

prvdam: Use FFW for what???

ffwguy: I agree with putting this on the CSC shoulders

steve_southwell: Amend the motion to remand SourceForge and Docs to the CSC with the restriction that any SourceForge decision should be approved by the board.

steve_southwell: All in favor?

steve_southwell: Aye

ffwguy: aye

pdigre: aye

prvdam: Aye

steve_southwell: OK. Cool.

steve_southwell: Did we miss any other old business?

ffwguy: No, I have up Peter's agenda from the last official meeting

prvdam: Cool

ffwguy: The only thing is we should be getting that article Brian wrote out to more places

steve_southwell: Who might we be missing?

ffwguy: By the way - I have Kim and Maggie coming to our PUG in Nov.

steve_southwell: That's cool.

ffwguy: As a new item, I propose we send approved minutes to the PEG FFW list, not just on the web page

steve_southwell: Seconded.

pdigre: absolutely

prvdam: Fine

steve_southwell: Sounds like a yes vote to me.

ffwguy: Other new business is what to do about meetings in the future - do we start another email list or what?

steve_southwell: Brian had questions about our meeting format...

steve_southwell: I don't know...

ffwguy: Steve you suggested a hybrid - how about we do get the new email list, but we also do an on line meeting once a month??

prvdam: Actually I don't agree with Brian's story from Barcelona - we just had a casual brainstorm and I did not take a strong position.

steve_southwell: In my mind, any such hybrid system would be like a threaded message board.

steve_southwell: Email discussions are too hard to keep flowing.

steve_southwell: And I don't have time to sit and read my mail all day long every 10 minutes.

ffwguy: How about a message board, plus less frequent on line meetings

pdigre: I'm in favor of the meeting format we currently have..

prvdam: This format is fine for me too.

steve_southwell: I might be persuaded to have less frequent meetings.

steve_southwell: I like the current format as well.

ffwguy: It's fine for us because we're here. One person that definitely is getting lost is Julian

prvdam: The original plan was one meeting every two weeks.

pdigre: How about limiting the online meetings to voting on issues only ?? should take less than 30min

steve_southwell: Actually, I like the other way around.

prvdam: Good idea Steve.

ffwguy: As for less frequent, we have to have something to pick up the slack. I like the idea of a BB for discussion, and the voting is very easy by email

steve_southwell: Perhaps we post the minutes and a list of things to vote on, then take votes by email.

ffwguy: On the other hand, while we're on line, the actual vote is .0001 seconds

steve_southwell: Has anyone checked out Ultimate Bulletin Board?

ffwguy: We need both online and off line.

prvdam: I like the idea of disussing issues with whoever can, and subsequently getting the votes by email.

steve_southwell: Sounds like maybe we're not going to find the perfect solution to this...

prvdam: Let's email the board for ideas.

ffwguy: Steve - there is a place that hosts UBB's for you free. Otherwise it's generally a mess, other BB's are better. I agree is sounds like we need to mull this over more. Let's continue to talk over email

steve_southwell: Maybe the solution is to let the facilitator for each week determine the format.

ffwguy: Steve - no, we'll have 75 formats a year

steve_southwell: We already have

prvdam: Besides, it becomes apparent at the last moment when somebody can or cannot make it.

steve_southwell: OK, all in favor of taking this discussion to email?

prvdam: Aye

steve_southwell: Aye

pdigre: aye

ffwguy: Aye, I've had 3 Poland Springs, lets get this over with

steve_southwell: Aye. We'll move it.

steve_southwell: Yes. We're 3 minutes over.

steve_southwell: Move to adjourn.

ffwguy: My bladder says Aye

prvdam: Bye

steve_southwell: Aye.

pdigre: bye

steve_southwell: The meeting is adjourned.

steve_southwell: Minutes will be posted later today.

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